Author Topic: HD-100 - Random Resets and Origin Loss  (Read 8814 times)

Offline paul

HD-100 - Random Resets and Origin Loss
« on: December 18, 2023, 03:37:12 PM »
Hey all,

I've had two instances now where the HD-100 controller unintentionally resets.

First time was static electricity that reset it. I was done all my cutting for the day, so wasn't a big deal.

Second time I simply pulled the pendant out of the cradle to insert the USB key with a revised file. The machine reset itself.

Controller prompted me to re-home the machine. I did not, as I didn't want to lose my workpiece origin. I was running multiple ops off this origin.

It wouldn't let me start the file, so I eventually let the machine do the homing cycle.

I was hopeful it would keep my workpiece origin and it seemed like it did with a quick visual check. Unfortunately, it absolutely DID NOT (Z was way up, so seemed closer than it was). When I ran the file, the origin was offset about +15mm in X and Y.

This really cause A LOT of heartache. The part being milled was one of a kind. Without the last op, it did not work as intended. We have no way of knowing if the last op would have made the difference.

Honestly, I'm furious. I NEVER want this to happen again.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Paul


Offline drew

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 184
  • Total likes: 22
  • If'n it ain't broke yet, just give me a minute.
    • View Profile
Re: HD-100 - Random Resets and Origin Loss
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2023, 08:17:20 AM »
man, I hate that for you.  There is really no way of anticipating a blink in the system- and which is most often caused by a power fluctuation either external to the machine or on the machine side of the internal transformer... it happens to all machines from time to time no matter the brand or build.  external, there is hardly anything that can be done without investing in something like a universal power supply which cleans output and stores enough energy to carry the machine to a point it can be recorded and closed... internally, when a failure happens there is usually little warning when it's electrical.   

there are two options for you moving forward, and they're in preparation for responding to a systems failure more than any kind of fix. 

the first is effective 95% of the time- which is setting an offset in your controller to correlate with the origin of the workpiece- not to be confused with setting the origin- it's a fixed position that leverages one of the g55-g59 offsets (there are actually a lot more slots than that available) and these offsets are set from the machine mechanical zero- meaning the movement to them is in absolute coordinates before it swaps over to relative and is done before any kind of gcode from a toolpath is loaded.   this will protect your workpiece if you encounter a systems reset mid stride.

the second is basically the same as the first, but instead of storing the coordinates of user origin in one of the slots for offset, you write these coordinates down somewhere- coordinates, again, are absolute from mechanical home.  If you lose your origin due to system reset, you just home and then bump the axis's over to the coordinates you wrote down and set as origin.  this will work all the time, even if the machine loses the programmed offsets during a system reset.  as an example of this, i used to write my origin coordinates directly on the spoilboard especially when i was cutting on something of value, and in a spot not used or covered by the material being cut.

.... i gotta say this carefully as not to come off as an ass- understand i learned this the hard way myself- but using a 'user origin' is a hack... it's a mighty useful and constantly used hack to the point of entering operations as a 'part of procedure hack' and one i use every day.. but from a machinists point of view who, say, works at a place cutting high valued material and which an eff up would cost him/her their job- the only way to safely proceed is using a programmed offset as opposed to a user defined relative origin. 

doing so does two things- it offers the person operating that machine protection by removing the 'could be arbitrary' but certainly 'relative user origin' from the mix.  if someone jacked up a workpiece of high value and i wanted to see the code to see what happened, as soon as i see code vectoring off of 'relative' position it's that operators fault.  if, however, i see the implementation of a g57 offset, let's say, my only question would be "what is the location of this offset and what is it's relation to the material fixtured to the bed?".....

^that's just an hypothetical example of how that can play out in a true production environment... how and what it means to us who answer pretty much to ourselves when we encounter these things is:  removing the user origin and using a pre-positioned offset OR using an origin in which we recorded the position from absolute/mechanical zero mitigates a good bit of concern out of encountering a system reset- and we can just pick up and move on if one happens.   

the only thing i know of that can help you avoid these types of happenings is to make certain your machine is well grounded so it is less likely to pop something off in the system while operating.

Offline paul

Re: HD-100 - Random Resets and Origin Loss
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2023, 08:47:44 AM »
Drew, I appreciate your response, and apologize if I came off as a bit... mad, hah.

I'm going to call Phantom and see if they can help re why it happened. Maybe get some tips on grounding, though I assumed this would all be done. (Power to the machine was done by an electrician, I'm not super familiar with the concept of grounding, but assumed it could/would all be done via the power input.)

Regarding coordinate recovery, a few questions:

1) After reset, which happened when the spindle was sitting above the origin at X0/Y0/Z25, workpiece coordinates still read 0,0,25. As the machine was homing itself, I watched the DRO on the workpiece coordinates move with travel of the machine to home. The piece was a bout a foot into the bed in X and Y, and the DRO for workpiece coordinates read ~ -250X / -300Y once it reached mechanical home. So I figured every was copacetic.

How would a G offset behave any differently? Are the G offsets not relative coordinates themselves?

Is it practical to setup G offsets for one-offs? Sincere question - I haven't played with them much.

2) I did consider writing down the mechanical coords once my origin was set. Is there a "Go To" type function in the HD-100? E.G. Go To 250,350,30


I'll run some tests when I find them time, maybe running some hole patterns where Mechanical Home = Workpiece Origin. See how consistent it is between resets.

Thanks for your help Drew.



Offline drew

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 184
  • Total likes: 22
  • If'n it ain't broke yet, just give me a minute.
    • View Profile
Re: HD-100 - Random Resets and Origin Loss
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2023, 09:20:15 AM »
Quote
How would a G offset behave any differently? Are the G offsets not relative coordinates themselves?

two seemingly conflicting statements:

so when you move your machine over to where you want the origin to be by aiming for the corner, center, ect, and assign that as 'home' (origin) the machine is absolute from that point... you actually changed your absolute base coordinate, but you placed it in a relative (arbitrary to the machine) place.  once your g-code starts being parsed, it'll 'consider' the moves absolute from that (relative) point...

the machine and the cut path being given to it via thumbdrive+gcode file aren't connected- the machine just does as it's told.. but, you can 'tell' the machine to do things PRIOR to it digesting the code- and can even do so WITH the code. 

the machine is absolute until it's told to think relative.  it's even then absolute, but from a relative position.  it just does exactly what it's told with the only concerns being "you can't go this far or that far, else crash, and i won't let you do that"....

yes, in direct response to your question, an offset is relative to something/somewhere.   you can either plop that relative (user defined) origin at a known location (to either you or the machine) or from just some place in space the machine doesn't care about with the exception of making certain it's within the work space envelope.  by leveraging one of the pre-defined offsets and having THAT ALSO as your 'user origin', you've just mapped out precisely, in code and repeatable programmatically, where that location is... so long as your workpiece is placed in precisely the same place (using registration points?) you can use that position as long as you want without changing a thing, and by either directing the machine to 'origin' OR by programmatically calling the corresponding offset (g57 as example) in the gcode. 

the machine is absolute- and the offsets are absolute positions- the relative comes in after the offset is called, as all moves are now relative to the offset not machine home or user defined origin.

Quote
Is it practical to setup G offsets for one-offs? Sincere question - I haven't played with them much.

maybe not... but what IS useful is homing the machine (mechanical zero) and then jogging to where you want user defined origin to be, and before assigning it as such- jotting down those coordinates.... I don't do this that often... i do it when i'm working on a piece that either i'm going to have to remove and then cut again (painting, perhaps?) or a piece that is hard to replace.  IF you choose this manner, you can toss out the jive above in the first question. 

Quote
I did consider writing down the mechanical coords once my origin was set. Is there a "Go To" type function in the HD-100? E.G. Go To 250,350,30

not that i know of there is no "go to this place" button... but it can be done by populating an offset BEFORE the gcode is introduced and moving relative from that point, OR, it can be brought up programmatically by either going to the predefined offset location, OR, by entering a line in the code by hand right after the GO X0 Y0 Zsafe that says GO X250 Y250 Z30.... i've done it both ways...

to be forthright, I don't have a single offset programmed in my DSP controller.... i just make mark of the origin's coordinates from mechanical zero and i use registration blocks to press the material up against... which works out the same without all the confusion or different approaches.   and to further present, i got one of those 300 win mag rifle casings with a laser pointer in it... if I lose position in space on an irreplaceable material, i'll slap that thing in the collet (300 winmag fits nicely in a half inch collet) and run code well above the workpiece and with the spindle off, and to make sure the cuts are where they should be.  i'll often 'cut air' above an expensive work piece with the same gadget before running the cut, just to make sure.   

Offline paul

Re: HD-100 - Random Resets and Origin Loss
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2023, 01:03:32 PM »
I guess I am questioning if there is drift in mechanical home. I know it's located by the machine using limit switches, so should be very closely repeatable.

The HD-100 controller displays both the spindle position relative to Mechanical Origin, as well as the spindles position relative to your workpiece coordinates.

What's weird to me is that after the machine reset, it read "Workpiece Coordinates" as X0 Y0 Z25 (or some height I had left it at between ops). The spindle had not moved, and the relative coordinates of workpiece origin were correct at 0,0,25 (because that's where I had left it).

So, the spindle, which did not move/was not moved prior to re-homing, was at the workpiece origin I had set, and display read as if it was there.

When I initiated the homing cycle, something got thrown off. The relative position of the user set origin was not actually at the same point in space as it was before.

The only reason I can imagine for this is the the mechanical origin is not repeatable - as in, it can vary between re-homings of the machine.

In any case... I'll need to do some tests to confirm my suspicions. Maybe "something just happened"!

I do like the tip of writing down the relative position of my set origin before I start running cut files. Wish I had done that so I could fully determine if there is drift in home as I suspect. 15mm seems excessive.

Do you have a shop or something? Your projects sound neat!

 

Offline drew

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 184
  • Total likes: 22
  • If'n it ain't broke yet, just give me a minute.
    • View Profile
Re: HD-100 - Random Resets and Origin Loss
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2023, 06:37:31 PM »
what i'd look for is making sure the little hall effect homing sensor is good and clean... they can pick up a film of debris and wreak havoc. 

the homing works off of an interrupt- as soon as it is encountered, it stops... it should be very precise. it's the same principle as when you complete the circuit with a Z touch off- instead using the circuit completion rather than the sensor.... it's like a g104 or something like that, but, it's not g-code but instead the programming language of the machine... with DSP it 'bounces back' some distance, but that is also repeatable.  your home should be dead on... if your machine was reading funky, it literally lost it's position in space and needed to be sent all the way back to mechanical home to move accurately from there on- the same as when you powered it up...